The following interview was first published in Hungarian on mandiner.hu and in the print Mandiner magazine today.

Gideon Sa’ar was born in Tel Aviv in 1966. He studied political science and law at Tel Aviv University. He began his political career in 1999 as a member of Ariel Sharon’s cabinet, first becoming a member of the Knesset in 2003, and a decade and a half later he unsuccessfully challenged Benjamin Netanyahu for the leadership of Likud. In 2020 he founded a new right-wing party called New Hope. He is a former minister of education, interior and justice, and since November of last year he has been foreign minister in the sixth Netanyahu government.

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Trump said ‘all hell would break out’ in the Mideast if the hostages aren’t released by his 20 January inauguration. Israel and Hamas finally agreed to a deal. What exactly was Trump referring to with this threat?

I don’t think that President Trump threatened the Israeli government. It was Hamas that was against the hostage deal. They insisted on preconditions like an unconditional cessation of the war, an unconditional and total withdrawal of Israeli troops from the Gaza Strip. We, of course, opposed this.

What made Hamas agree to the ceasefire conditions?

Two things happened. First, Israel changed the regional situation. We fought and won against Hezbollah and Hamas, the leadership of Hezbollah was gone, we took the majority of their weapons and ammunitions, and we had a separate ceasefire with Lebanon. After that Assad was toppled. He was supported by Iran and Hezbollah, but both got weakened, and we also demonstrated that we could hit Iran very effectively. So altogether we changed the regional situation, and Hamas felt more isolated.

The second thing was the American pressure—mainly President Trump’s pressure—that brought Qatar into a more positive involvement. These two things made Hamas to agree to the conditions. This is only a temporary ceasefire, because it’s understood by the US that we can resume the military actions if it’s needed in order to meet our objectives of the war. We withdrew from populated areas, but not from the whole Gaza Strip. We wanted a framework for the hostage deal, because we want all hostages to come back.

National security minister Itamar Ben-Gvir resigned after the decision. Were there big debates in the Security Cabinet and in the full Cabinet about the deal?

I participated in six governments, and I can tell you this was one of the most serious and painful discussions. The reason is clear: we paid a heavy price, because we released terrorists in return, and that’s not easy. Indeed, there is an internal debate in Israel. Our country is a democracy, there are a lot of people who oppose the deal, and that argument is understood too. One fraction left the government, and thus the parliamentary base for the government has shrunk. There is still a majority, but a narrow one. It was a hard but necessary decision. The essence of the Jewish state is to save Jews.

No permanent truce is possible with Hamas, Israel says. Even if ceasefire works and all hostages are freed, Hamas will be there. If 15 months weren’t enough to eliminate them, what is the guarantee Israel will ever reach its objective?

The guarantee is our determination. We also got assurances from the USA that in case we have to resume the military activities, they will support us.

We have certain objectives: Hamas must get out of the Gaza strip. The stability of the region depends on it. Hamas has an ideology of eliminating the Jewish state. And Hamas caused a regional war. If Hamas stays here, it’s a tragedy for both Israelis and Palestinians. We are determined to achieve our war objective, whether it can be done by diplomatic means or by military activities.

Trump said that he was ‘not confident’ that the ceasefire deal would hold—suggesting that he might support Israel in reaching its war objective. President Biden was not that supportive—will President Trump be?

When we need it, we will have America’s back. President Trump was always a friend of Israel; in his first term he did things that none of the previous American Presidents had one. Israel is a strong ally of the US in the region, and it has demonstrated that it is the pillar of strength and stability in this instable and dangerous region.

Trump has lifted the sanctions Biden imposed on Israeli settlers in West Bank; Trump’s new Ambassador to the UN said Israel had a biblical right to the West Bank; Jared Kushner said Israel should move Palestinians out of Gaza and then clean it up. Do all these make you optimistic?

We have been optimistic since our experience of the first term of President Trump. He recognized Israel’s sovereignty over the Golan Heights, moved the US Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, acknowledged that settlements are not illegal, and scrapped the nuclear deal with Iran. Our basic alliance is very strong. And it’s good for all the world that a decisive person entered office, because in recent years we have seen disintegration and the rise of the axis of non-democratic countries.

President Trump, building on the Abraham Accords, is trying to get Saudi Arabia and Israel to normalize their diplomatic relations. Therefore, America cannot avoid the Palestinian question, because the Saudis want a Palestinian state. Would that still be possible? And how?

We would like to normalize relations with the Saudis. We could do it with Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates, Marocco and Sudan. And we didn’t have to form a Palestinian state in the middle of our heartland. There is a mutual interest, but it’s difficult now as there is still a military conflict going on.

To form a Palestinian state is to form a Hamas state. There is a reason the Palestinian Authority hasn’t held an election since 2005. They knew who would win the elections. To bring Hamas to form a Palestinian state would be terrible for regional stability. Palestinian society must go through a process of deradicalization. It is not only the Hamas: the Palestinian Authority is paying terrorists: they support the families of the terrorists. They encourage terrorism. They incite: the books in kindergartens and schools are poisoning the minds of the new generations. If they don’t change these narratives, there will be no chance for negotiations.

Who will do this job, starting the process of deradicalization?

I don’t see in the Palestinian society or Palestinian political life a strong, pragmatic leader who wants to lead them in the right direction. What we need is a Hamas defeat and that the Palestinian society changes its mentality, and maybe in the future we would have partners. We had wanted peace with the Palestinians, and we did take two big steps: the Oslo Agreements in the 1990s, when the Palestinian Authority was established, and the unilateral withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in 2005. But we only got a terrorist state in Gaza. The Israeli public now is totally against the concessions. We are now very cautious with ideas like the two-state solution, which we call the ‘two-state illusion’.

No peace with Hamas, and you don’t trust the Palestinian Authority. Who will govern Gaza then?

We don’t want to control civil life, and we don’t care who will do it. We only have two conditions: they must disconnect from terrorism and from incitement. Maybe we will have a transitional period with the help of the US, the international community and the moderate Arab states.

For how long? Years?

Yes. Until there is a right ground for the future.

Will there be a full military withdrawal from Gaza? Or will the IDF stay there?

From time to time we enter the Palestinian cities, catching and eliminating terrorists, but afterwards we leave the place. We don’t have any territorial aspirations; we only want security. And we don’t compromise on our security.

Iran has been weakened by Israeli actions. But the clock is still ticking: Iran has nuclear programmes, possibly trying to produce nuclear weapons. How narrow is the time frame to act?

Very narrow. We have concerns that they might start the weaponization process. Iran cannot possess nuclear weapons, because Iran is the most extremist and dangerous country in the world. Iran publicly declared that it wants to eliminate the state of Israel. We learnt from our history that if an enemy of the Jews says that they want to eliminate the Jews, we’d better believe they mean it. So Iran’s intention must be prevented.

If Trump can’t negotiate a new atomic deal with Iran, would he allow an Israeli preventive military attack against Iranian nuclear facilities?

I don’t want to get into details, but the most important thing is not to compromise on the objective. The objective is that we will not allow Iran to have nuclear weapons. How will we meet this objective? One way or another. Trump knows exactly how dangerous a nuclear Iran would be. Israel is a sovereign state, and we coordinate with our American friends, but we act alone if needed.

After 7 October Israel showed its power, weakened its enemies and changed the power dynamics of the region. Is Israel’s security position better now than before 7 October?

I would say we restored the image of Israeli strength that was hurt on 7 October. We demonstrated we could act 2000 kilometres from our borders in Yemen or in Iran, and we could deal with complicated and multifrontal challenges. The Middle East is a very tough neighbourhood, but it’s our ancient land. God decided, and we believe this land belongs to us. In 1999 Ariel Sharon as foreign minister came back from a visit to the Vatican, and he told me a story: the pope asked him what the difference between the Holy and the Promised Land was, and Sharon answered that the Holy Land is for all the religions, but the Promised Land is only for the Jews. Our families came back from hundreds of different locations as exiles to a country that was ours 2000 years ago—it’s a phenomenon. We Jews have a common faith which helps us confront big troubles and bad situations. And that was the case in the last 15 months too.

Hungary has become a strong ally of yours. Have any Hungarian officials explained why Budapest shifted to a strong pro-Israel stance during the last decade? Is there any explanation?

Well, I think I understand that. There is bond, an alliance between us. We are both a proud, sovereign, independent and free nation. Hungary had a different stance on illegal immigration, and now many nations admit that Hungary was right about it. Now they see what threat radical Islam poses. Israel knows it because we are closer to it, but now there are large Muslim communities in Europe too, so Europe can experience similar things to what we experience in the Middle East.

And of course, there is a bond between Prime Minister Netanyahu and Prime Minister Orbán—they have been friends for a long time. And there are similarities between us about the way we look at reality. Maybe this is one reason that both countries are friends of the new Trump administration.

With its pro-Israeli stance, could Hungary become a target of Islamic terrorism? (Recently there have been bomb threats against dozens of Hungarian schools, with e-mails sent with Islamic warnings).

There are many countries that had a soft approach towards Islamists and still they have become a target anyway. Radical Islam terrorism is a threat for Europe. The thing which can help Hungary is a realistic, tough approach. A country always needs to be prepared for these attacks, and needs to cooperate with its partners to avoid such a situation.

Hungary votes in favour of Israel in most of the international organizations. Does Israel consider Hungary an important partner?

Yes. Hungary today is one of the best allies of Israel in the international community. I just talked to Secretary Marco Rubio on the phone, and I told him that I was in Budapest and Hungary was our best friend and America’s friend.

Did he agree with that?

Yes. I think it’s totally agreed, and we appreciate that. We know who our real friends are. I think the future of politics in Europe belongs to those who are courageous enough not to act according to the political correctness, but to stand by their national interests and the world order. Israel and Hungary are in the same camp. Thus, first of all, we are thankful, secondly, we are there to help Hungary when it’s needed.

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